Call us europeans “smug euros”, but smug euros have a long experience with occupied islamic countries,
and the experinces have been very bad.
plus they fucked up africa, australia and the americas before they got smart and smug, so it could well be that they are losers in general?
The l990 Census of German-Americans
The results of the 1990 U.S. Census indicate that the total U.S. population is: 248,709,873.
The five major groups and their percentages of the total population are as follows:
1. German 57,985,595 (23.3 %)
2. Irish 38,739,548 (15.6 %)
3. English 32,655,779 (13.1 %)
4. Italian 14,714,939 (5.9 %)
5. Polish 9,366,106 (3.8 %)
The “German” category does not include Germans from other German-speaking states and regions of Europe and the Americas. Hence, to the “German” statistic the following can be added:
they have been safe in their areas, Saddam dident have the power to fight against them
What’s an acceptable price to pay to have 25M people able to choose their own destiny? What’s an acceptable price to pay to prevent a single human being from being torured?
Which destiny should they choose?
death by carbombing, by gunfire, no matter if its only collateral damage by the us troops or by terrorists
Ossi, why don’t you read my posts and the articles quoted and then we can discuss the situation. And perhaps you could supply me with some evidence to back up your assertations, as I have tried to do.
I ve read your posts, but I see the facts on television every day.
shot us soldiers, carbombs, asassinations, chaos everywhere and an uprising civilwar.
Maybe Bush really wanted to free iraq, not only for the oil, but what he and his buddys did was even more terrible than
the dictatorship of hussein.
they created chaos in iraq, and they created a new base for terrorism there, and I fear it will be even worse.
CM, let me also say one other thing. This thread isn’t aimed at you, or those like you; those who use reason and logic and oppose the war. From what I have gathered (please correct me if I am wrong) it seems that you feel that we simply rushed in when inspections were working. I can respect that attitude. I don’t agree, but I respect it. I have several friends who feel the same way. I get the impression too that you might feel that force might have been necessary if disclosure and disarmament weren’t full and complete(again correct me if I am wrong). That isn’t what has driven me nuts for the last month. It has been the insane ones. Those who can not discuss only hurl venom. Those who stick dutifully to talking points. Those who prey on emotion. Those who are style over substance. So please don’t think that I am here just to be a righty troll. The extremists on both sides have hijacked the dialogue in this country and are using it to shout slogans at each other. I guess my purpose here is to get back to the conference table. I’m tired of talking points taking the place of discussion. So this was my vent, and I appreciate the chance to discuss issues rather than shout over each other.
Sir Not Appearing In this Film
Thanks for that. I agree, these arguments can go pear-shaped very quickly (look at what we’ve had already from both sides). There are many separate arguments which need to be kept separate if anyone is going to give them serious attention - e.g. what were the motives for the war, how and when did they develop, how was the war sold and were people mislead or lied to, and was the invasion legitimate in international law and under UN rules ? But when they are all lumped together the temperature rises rapidly and nobody gets anywhere.
As for the “anti-war” interpretation of whether the invasion was legitimate in international law and under the UN rules, WS made a good fist of it here:
To which BluesStringer, who I am sure we all agree has high standards, began:
Well WS, congratulations, you just made literally the only logical, concise and valid argument against determining a breach that I’ve ever heard.
You mean they could have been tying him up in so much red tape that he had no idea if anything was actually accomplished?
Would you not agree that the inspection process was improving and had had significantly more success than at any time previously ?
Blix had to be very careful in his optimistic language. He is a professional, if he took liberties then he would be failing in his job. What concerns me is that people constantly point out his qualified statements but then have no problem with governments (UK, US) taking similarly carefully worded intelligence reports and unsubstantiated ‘intelligence’ from people who have motive, and turning them into something else.
What about the passage I quoted from Blix’s book ? Do you subscribe to BaghdadBombs’ theory that “it only reads different since it was written for a book” ?
Iraq WAS supposed to disclose, no question. And Hussien was an horrific leader, no question.
As I said in that link from the other thread
“It’s one thing to be highly critical in a formal report to the UN. It’s entirely another for one or two nations to pick out the parts they want, ignore the process that is clearly set down, and decide to invade a country and foreseeably kill tens of thousands of people.”
And:
“You either buy into the UN system of determining when to invade countries, or you don’t. If you buy in, you don’t just do it when you feel like it.”
Xetrov, can I have a medal please ?
I’ll have Blair’s - he clearly doesn’t want it...........
plus they fucked up africa, australia and the americas before they got smart and smug, so it could well be that they are losers in general?
No jabba, they have understand their lesson, americans still have to do, but there is still hope for “gods own country”
whats left to say - euros know it all; they’re miles ahead of us in every way, and thats nothing to feel modest about. no wonder cm feels at home there.
go ask him on your next vacation. i have yet to hear him say he knows iraq better than iraqis. “never met a iraqi i didn’t like. bush sure was wrong about saddam. he’s just sitting around all mild-mannered crying over his country”
i imagine meeting you and ossi in a euro pub somewhere, discussing the world, getting educated, would be priceless. for about 5 minutes, then talk would invariably turn to biafra and the failings of our 52 states. and how all you’d need is $50,000 and some CARE packets dropped from air force one, but bush’s war forced gas prices up too high.
the first thing i’d like to discuss is why you haven’t applied your vast knowledge towards healing africa. you’re miles ahead technologically and ecologically, you’re overall skills are sounder, your currency harder, your compassion greater as you know from suffering. race can’t be an issue. you literllay speak the same english (see ossi). to borrow a euro wisdom: actions speak louder than words.
or are you afraid we’ll bomb your towns while you’re repatriating the song “kumbaya”
Hussein wasnt a strong leader at the end, the iraqu forces have not been a thread to any country before the war started.
Tell that to Kuait and the Kurds…
how many us soldiers have died 2000?
how many civilists have died 10000s?
how expensive is this war?
What’s an acceptable price to pay to have 25M people able to choose their own destiny? What’s an acceptable price to pay to prevent a single human being from being torured?
See, CM. This is what I’m talking about. THIS is the reason for this thread.
Ossi, why don’t you read my posts and the articles quoted and then we can discuss the situation. And perhaps you could supply me with some evidence to back up your assertations, as I have tried to do.
Sir Not Appearing In This Film
You should put your origional posts in the faq section also… so we can have it later as a reference.
Iraqi defectors? Please, only a cursory look into their pasts especially Chalabi’s would have shown any reporter with half a brain that he was full of shit. The CIA had even dropped him from their payroll years before because of his credibility issues and yet he was the chief defector used to substantiate what is now known to be a bunch of nonsense.
An extreme example is Colin Powell. He sat in front of the world and used a post-grad students paper on the Middle East and cited it as if it were fact. The student later wanted to sue for plagiarism. That would be funny if it wasn’t so f’ing serious.
It gives the impression of being an up to the minute intelligence-based analysis - and Mr Powell was fulsome in his praise.
Published on the Number 10 web site, called “Iraq - Its Infrastructure of Concealment Deception and Intimidation”, it outlines the structure of Saddam’s intelligence organisations.
But it made familiar reading to Cambridge academic Glen Rangwala. It was copied from an article last September in a small journal: the Middle East Review of International Affairs.
It’s author, Ibrahim al-Marashi, a postgraduate student from Monterey in California. Large sections do indeed appear, verbatim.
A section, for example, six paragraphs long, on Saddam’s Special Security Organisation, the exact same words are in the Californian student’s paper.
In several places Downing Street edits the originals to make more sinister reading.
Number 10 says the Mukhabarat - the main intelligence agency - is “spying on foreign embassies in Iraq”.
The original reads: “monitoring foreign embassies in Iraq
Really if you were to just trace one reporter’s involvment, Judith Miller, it would be clear how the “facts were being fixed around the policy” IMO. She was the pro war mouthpiece that the administration used tp plant the aluminum tubes story in the NY Times and then went on air that day citing the story they had given her as fact. If you can’t see the wrongness in that then there really is no point in debating anything.
From his appearance on Tim Russert’s Meet the Press, Dick Cheney:
Specifically aluminum tubes. There’s a story in The New York Times this morning-this is-I don’t-and I want to attribute The Times. I don’t want to talk about, obviously, specific intelligence sources, but it’s now public that, in fact, he has been seeking to acquire, and we have been able to intercept and prevent him from acquiring through this particular channel, the kinds of tubes that are necessary to build a centrifuge.
Of course he doesnt want to talk about the sources, he/Rove/Libby/Bush are the source that gave Miller the “scoop” and planted the story. The fact that Miller had access to the White House is not in dispute. And the fact that the centrifuge/tubes claim is false is also not in dispute. The Libby trial proved beyond any doubt from whose office she was receiving information. Its a skillful manipulation of the public and the so called Left Wing media.
yeah i guess that was kind of dumb of me to post that there. Sorry I just reallized how old that discussion was, im sure everyone in that discussion is tired of the topic as it has dragged out for years now. But id be happy to hear any more thoughts and continue the discussion.
